Chile: Un Roba Culturas?
This may offend some of you, specially if you are from Chile or haveChilean descent, but my main question is:
Why does the Chilean goverment or it's people feel the need to 'steal' (call 'theirs') certain objects/things deriving fr
om other cultures and make them theirs??This was apparent to me sometime ago when I was told that Chile wanted to pattent the liquor called Pisco. Pisco is a national drink of Peru, and it is closely related to the Italian Grappa. Pisco comes from the city Pisco in the province of Ica (see map).
The reason why the Chilean government felt that Pisco was a 'Chilean' product was because Chilean companies sought to make a profit by exporting this peruvian liquor.
The peruvian government saw that Pisco was being
confused as a 'Chilean' and were
quick to take judicial matters into
their own hands. Not only did Peru pattent the product, but in order to clarify any misunderstanding, a National Pisco Day was created.
On February 4th of every year it is Pisco Sour Day in Peru. I had the
fortune of being in Peru during this time, and I got to savor the delicious peruvian drink in most stores. A grocery store by my house, E.Wong, was giving samples of not only Pisco Sour but of other drinks that also contained Pisco for free to the public.
Another story of this sort came to my attention via Danica (my bolivian friend) that is similiar to the 'Pisco - Chile' fiasco. This deals with an instrument called, charango, used in Andean Music deriving from Bolivia. The charango is closely associated with a guitar but has smaller proportions and a distinct sound. It seems that Chile has confused this instrument to be theirs. Not only is this confusion prevalent in the Chilean nation, but it was also passed on to international figures, like U2's Bono. Here is the story. (Gracias Dani)
Gobierno explicará a Bono que el charango es boliviano
(Bolivia.com)
El gobierno boliviano enviará una carta al cantante del grupo U2, Bono
para explicarle que el charango que le regaló recientemente el
presidente de Chile, Ricardo Lagos, es un instrumento musical de
origen boliviano y no chileno.
Así lo hizo saber a Efe el viceministro de Cultura, Edgar Arandia,
quien sostuvo que la misiva presentará argumentos de la Sociedad del
Charango Boliviano para justificar esa afirmación.
El funcionario anunció además que propondrá al presidente de su país,
Evo Morales, que en la próxima transmisión de mando en Chile, el 11 de
marzo, le regale una réplica de este instrumento de cuerda andino a la
futura gobernante, Michelle Bachelet, como forma de reivindicación.
Dijo que se ha puesto en contacto con uno de los fabricantes de
objetos musicales más reconocidos de Bolivia, Adrián Villanueva, para
obtener una pieza que esté a la altura de un regalo presidencial.
"Creemos que esta es una oportunidad especial por ser un acto
internacional que va a tener mayor trascendencia que cualquier carta
de queja", opinó.
El pasado domingo, Lagos regaló un charango al cantante de U2, al
recibirlo en el Palacio de La Moneda, lo que causó controversia en
Bolivia y llevó al viceministro de Cultura a manifestar que las
autoridades de La Paz no se atreverían "a enviar un moai de la Isla de
Pascua como patrimonio boliviano".
El gobierno boliviano enviará una carta al cantante del grupo U2, Bono
para explicarle que el charango que le regaló recientemente el
presidente de Chile, Ricardo Lagos, es un instrumento musical de
origen boliviano y no chileno.
Así lo hizo saber a Efe el viceministro de Cultura, Edgar Arandia,
quien sostuvo que la misiva presentará argumentos de la Sociedad del
Charango Boliviano para justificar esa afirmación.
El funcionario anunció además que propondrá al presidente de su país,
Evo Morales, que en la próxima transmisión de mando en Chile, el 11 de
marzo, le regale una réplica de este instrumento de cuerda andino a la
futura gobernante, Michelle Bachelet, como forma de reivindicación.
Dijo que se ha puesto en contacto con uno de los fabricantes de
objetos musicales más reconocidos de Bolivia, Adrián Villanueva, para
obtener una pieza que esté a la altura de un regalo presidencial.
"Creemos que esta es una oportunidad especial por ser un acto
internacional que va a tener mayor trascendencia que cualquier carta
de queja", opinó.
El pasado domingo, Lagos regaló un charango al cantante de U2, al
recibirlo en el Palacio de La Moneda, lo que causó controversia en
Bolivia y llevó al viceministro de Cultura a manifestar que las
autoridades de La Paz no se atreverían "a enviar un moai de la Isla de
Pascua como patrimonio boliviano".
According to this article from Bolivia.com, the Chilean President had given the lead singer of the internationally famous rock band, U2, a 'Chilean present' as a token of appreciation for visiting their country. The charango was presented to Bono as a typical instrument from the Chilean culture.
This upset not only the Bolivian population, but also Bolivian officials. After this incident, the goverment of Bolivia quickly sent a letter to the lead singer to clarify the descent of the charango
as a Bolivian instrument; not Chilean.
But it is not only Pisco and the Charango that have been thought of as 'Chilean'. It is also 'El Caballo de Paso' and the dessert 'Suspiro Limeno' are thought to be Chilean as well.
First of all, El Caballo de Paso, is a type of horse from the peruvian viceroyalty legacy. Secondly, 'Suspiro Limeno' derives from Lima, hence the name of the dessert. Here are other views on this fallacy.
Come on!!! What happened to your originality Chile???
But if you ask, 'What's the big deal?'
Well the big deal is as such. Every Latino country has their own culture, own history, own traditions, etc. We pride on our culture because that is what separates is from the rest; it is what makes each nation unique. Our cultures are what identifies us, and if you take any part away from a culture, you take some of the identity away.
posted by Maria @ 8:57 PM
25 Comments:
I heard somewhere that computer hackers from both countries are also going at each other, breaking into government servers and posting nationalistic claims regarding the latest maritime dispute, seafood and ...the pisco.
In the latest attack Peruvian Ministry’s of Justice web page was attacked by chilean hacker by spreading the message: „We fight for what is ours. The ocean and pisco are Chilean”.
It was probably a response to a peruvian computer wiz called Cyber Alexis, who had broken into the Chilean National Emergency Office’s site.
- sigh -, why can't the Chileans and Peruvians just get along. The pacific war is OVER! Move on and start working together as neighbors and not against each other. But I guess there's so much animosity, rivalry and mistrust, it will never happen. Too bad. This is all so silly.
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Another example: on new years day I signed up at an online-forum of German soccer club 'Eintracht Frankfurt'.
My first post simply was to wish all fans a 'Feliz Año Nuevo' and sending some sunny and warm peruvian greetings as a far-away-fan.
The very first, rather prejudicial, response was this: "Hola Inka, vivo en Alemania, pero soy chileno. Normalmente no ceremos mucho al los peruanos, perdo igual te deseo un año nuevo super feliz.
Saludos desde Frankfurt,
un Chileno".
As I found out from this person's other posts and profile, he was a 15-year old kid, born in Germany to a German father and Chilean mother. He had never been to Chile nor Peru, so I guess his prejudice is solely based on what his mother told him about peruvians.
ooh my. That's why there will never be a "United States of South America" or a "South American Union".
S.A. has not yet heard the concept of "together we are stronger".
The maritime borders is another different issue. According to the chilean government, Peru wants to take some of the land belonging to Chile. This is a false statement because the government of Peru wanted a third party/an international voice to set a fair limit between these two countries. Not take land away.
Yes, this notion of mistrust and rivalry is archaic, but it only arises when topics like these are discussed. As far as I am concerned (views from my family anf friends), there is no hatred toward the Chilean community. If there wasn't any economic interest involved from a more economically advanced nation, such as Chile, then there would be no animosity. If Chile wants to export Pisco, then that is fine, BUT, it should acknowledge the origins of the product.
Futhermore, It is not solely a 'Pacific War' rivalry, I bet that if you told an Argentinian that 'El Tango'is Uruguyan.. they would give you a more charismatic response.
chile sucks. I'm bitter. gimme my ocean back!
No, really, the pacific war is over and everybody keeps saying, "just get over it" But the truth is, most of the people who say this are probably 1.) Not Bolivian, and 2.) Have a coastline.
It is hard not to think that had we not lost our coast to Chile, Bolivia wouldn't be as underdeveloped as it is today. Don't get me wrong- I love my country, and as poor as it is I continue to think it has one of the richest cultures in the world. This is why it is so enfuriating to see Chile claim what is not theirs and take credit for something that its Andean neighbors have held and practiced for centuries in their cultures.
In my opinion -let me restate that-MY OPINION, Chile has proven to be unoriginal, manipulative and arrogant.
All in all, I'm not a big fan of chile. As a matter of fact, the only things i give it credit for are: Pablo Neruda, Isabel Allende, and Bolivia's beautiful coast. There you go Maru- How's that for a comment?
Being chilean i can say it: Yes, we are a "roba-culturas". It's like in our fundational chart or something.
Let see each point:
The "Pisco" was originated in Peru, true. Chile imported the production process, and started a whole system of restrictions on what kind of grapes and under what conditions could it be processed (giving it the same status that wines get worldwide). You can blame us for taking the name (actually, ours should be called "Elqui"), but chilean and peruvian Pisco is something totally different from his fabrication.
Charango: Leaving at one side if the origin is "andean" or "bolivian", Chile actually anexed a large chunk of both some time ago, so is not exactly that far away from reallity to call it as part of our culture as well. I mean, part of the territory where they were developed is currently chilean (same with Easter islands, by example).
Suspiro Limeño: Nothing to say here. Even national chefs admited that those who where trying to call it a chilean product (Soprole i think?) where just acting like clowns.
Caballo de Paso: Surprise! Chile was part of the Virreinato del Peru :P. If you go by this, then you could say that the Guitar has nothing to do with Chile, nor the Cueca, nor the Empanadas, nor the Asados. Heck, if we go for this, i doubt you can find more than 20 coutries with a culture of their own in the world.
And just to add one to your list,
Curanto: A dish for which the south of chile is famous... originated in polinesia (you know, those guys who populated parts of south america... they brough their culture)
Chile is a long country, with lots of different people coming from diferent places in the world. That is why there are so many "stolen" pieces of culture here, because the people that came brought their traditions, and as they were growing and mixing with other groups they adapted their ideas and the ones from the other people to form something new. Heck, even the "hot dog" (completo) is now part of the chilean culture, but the chilean and US versions are totally different.
I know is something hard to understand to people from countries where there is less cultural diversity than here (like... the rest of south america). But like our tradition says, Chile is the coutry where all the leftovers from the world were dropped, and we made our own Eden from than (with snakes and all :P)
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Less cultural diversity??
hmm.. that is an overstatement.
I think that is what America is, right?
To say that Chile has more cultural diversity than .. let's say .. Brasil?? well that saying that a little out of hand.
I appreciate the comment that you left, and I am impressed at admitting that Chile does 'take' other cultures and make them theirs.
to address each point you made.. well let's see..
1) I see that we are both in agreeance there. Chile did export it because it has the means of exportation to do so. I would like to try Chilean Elqui sometime.
2) Chile is obviously expands reaching the Andes, but, as a Peruvian, I know that el 'charango' is Bolivian. That is like saying that la Saya is Peruvian because Peru and Bolivia are next to each other,
3)Yes.. Chile was part of the Vireynato but so was Mexico, Guatemala, Colombia and Argentina.. do THEY have el Caballo de Paso??
4) This is great! We both agree in 'Suspiro Limeno'!
5) Curango.. I am glad that you have Polynesian culture with yours. I am also glad that you named something that I can finally say, 'Curango is a CHILEAN DISH!'..
and that is wonderful that there is that sort polynesian culture in Chile BUT the last time I checked, Peru has a Afro-Peuano culture. Asian culture (Japon, China.. etc.) and European..
so again, to state that Chile is filled with lore 'diversity' is blowing it out of proportion.
Thank you for your comments.. and please, drop by and say what you think ALL the time. I appreciate good discussions like these.
Your peruvian friend
Maria
Well, yes, i think my "cultural diversity" commentary was a bit misleading.
My intention here is point the fact that Chile is a country that was born from the cultural diversity, rather than being an existent society that was absorbed during "the conquest" (like Peru or Mexico), or that originated from an homogeneous group through a colonization (like USA) or through a clearly distinctive "mestizaje" (Brazil). You can compare us with Argentina all you want, though :P.
Chile from early in its story became a country of "mestizos", where pure blood groups coming from everywhere always ended mixing in big numbers with the already mixed population. Beign a society without a clear origin, we simply adopted the traditions and beliefs of every group we absorbed into our society. In the same way, every group that was absorbed by us adopted some of the customs of the mixed population.
The chilean society is such that our cultural identity is based in the fact that we are a "mix" of many different groups. We can't even say that the mapuches are our "origin" (like peruvians with incas, or bolivians with aimaras) because they are only one more component of what we are nowadays, culturally and by blood.
Going back to the charango business, Chile anexed "bolivian territory" during a war. But this was not just land, it had bolivian and aimara people, people with traditions of their own. Being the "Borg-like" society we are, we adopted their folklore and made it our own, charango included.
(Speaking of this, you know that some of the southern traditional chilean music is so "traditional" that includes... german instruments? yes, that is the level of assimilation that we have)
About the small horse, just to point that the difference between Chile and the other "Audiencias" was that this place was the backyard of Peru. And was at the same time so problematic that almost everything that ended in Peru had to be brought here too just to make sure we survived another year. I wouldn't be surprised if you find other peruvian originated goods that exist also in Chile, but not in the rest of the more peaceful and rich "Audiencias".
One little side note so there aren't any further confusion...
I am pretty sure that the Incas originated in Bolivia, but in the midst of searching for a place to start their empire in... the stumbled on to Machu Picchu...formerly known as Peruvian territory.
You are right in the whole diversification of Chile, but I think as a whole, being Latino (from the Americas, that is what we are) is essentially what separates us from the rest.
You obviously know that a Latino is both white, brown, tall, short, blue-eyed, browned-eyed.. all different shapes and sizes. We come from the Spanish viceroyalty but we also come from a migratory era escaping prosecution or trying to start anew.
I did take in offense when you stereotyped all Peruvians as to coming from one sort of culture (inka). That is the main stereotype that we are mistaken for. As you see in a previous comment by my friend, inka-wolfy, on how a Chilean man asked him if he was 'inkan'.. which is completely wrong and very ignorant.
As far as original Chilean culture (please forgive me for my lack of knowledge) but if Chile is made up from different cultures assilimilating to one.. then what makes up the Chilean culture?
one more thing, what do you mean by 'audiencias'>
just found another anecdote at BBC.
Even the sacred 'papa' is no longer safe...
Potatoes spark Chile-Peru dispute
Same as you say with Incas, Peru and Bolivia...
The charango originated in Bolivia, but the andean music spreaded across the Altiplano... thus ended in Chile too. I don't think we called the charango "a chilean invention" but "an instrument typical of some of the music played in this country". (kinda... need to check if it's written somewhere)
About the diversification, is true that we as latins are mostly a mix. The difference between the people in every country is not only the variety of components, but also how the components mixed together. Think of it as saying that while Peru is sweet Cofee-Milk with sugar, Chile is rice with curry :).
What i don't understand is why you tak offense about claiming the Peruvian origins based on one dominant native tribe. Sure, may not be precise, same as claiming that the chilean origin is in the Mapuches. Actually, i think most of chileans would be proud of it if you refer to them as that (even if they are called Hansen McMonroe).
Going back to my first point, i think we feel that every component of our country is part of us, even if we are not directly related to them. At least is the way learn it in the school ;)
What makes Chilean culture?...
We leave everything until the last minute possible.
We work long, but the lazy way.
We are always late.
We stand on rows instead of crowding to get attention.
We will make jokes about every person different to us, but will also go drink and celebrate with them as long as they share our "sense of humor".
The Chilean culture is what chileans do. Nothing more and nothing less.
(the audiencias were a subdivition of the spanish empire during the colony, couldn't find a good translation)
Pisco is Peruvian in origin. But, Pisco has been produced and consumed in mass quantities in Chile for over 100 years - way before it was ever commercialized and exported by Chile, we Chileans have been drinking this wondeful elixir. :) Eben today, Chileans consume approximately ten times more Pisco than Peruvians. That is simply reality. Thanks to Chilean commercialization Pisco became known around the world, and Peruvians can now reap the benefits of that internationalization. Now thay need to cacth up on production, as Chile outproduces Peru 10 to 1 in Pisco.
Charango. There are 300,000 Aymaras in Chile. They are now Chileans and they have a very distinct culture in Chile. They use Andean instrumnents. Also, the Charango comes from the guitar, the guitar comes from Spain. Therefore the Charango has anything but indigenous origins. Also, despite the Andean origin of many instruments, among the best known artists that incorporate Andean influences in their music have been Chilean. Among them Illapu (all member are of Chilean Aymara descent), Inti-Illimani, Quilapayun, etc. Chile enjoyed a cultural renaissance in the late 1960s and esrly 1970s - before Pinochet - and while other countries populations rejected all things indigenous - Chile was embracing them and incorporating them in to progressive politics and social justice movements. So, if anything, Chilean "absorption" of some cultural expressions was a tribute to the growing enlightenment of the Chilean masses and the ability to break the age-old nationalistic blindness that permeates throughout Latin America.
Maritime dispute. Chile, Ecuador, and Peru signed martime agreements in the 1950s which set the maritime boundaries for each country at the time. If Peru made a bad deal that is unortunate, but both Chile and Ecuador agree that those agreements are not reversible. The only party attempting to alter the agreement is Peru - 50 years later.
Bolivian sea. Being a Chilean I have no issues with negotiating a strip of land with access to the sea for Bolivia. Chile attempted to do this in the 1970s offering Bolivia territory bordering southern Peru. Peru opposed any of its former territory being ceded to Bolivia. So negotiations went nowhere. Chile and Bolivia also have a hundred year old treaty establishing national borders. Maybe Bolivia negotiated a poor deal - and 100 years later Bolivia wants to change the treaty. What's next, Mexico reclaiming the US Southwest because it got a raw deal? Russia demanding arbitration for recovering Alaska? Absurd.
Pacific War Syndrome: A Fact. Chile as a country rarely ever deals with this war in any way - as it happened so long ago. There are tens of thousands of Peruvian immigrants in Chile, many do quite well. Just last month a huge rally in Santiago welcomed Bolivian President Evo Morales - guess what the "evil" Chileans were demanding in their chants to Morales..."MAR PARA BOLIVIA, SEA FOR BOLIVIA!" Never had I seen that kind of solidarity - I was very proud of my fellow Chileans for that principled stand.
The Potato issue and other culinary issues. Why do people even argue over something totally random like as to where a plant or root was originally found? Potatos in peru had nothing to do with Peruvians. The potato existed long before any modern nation-states existed in the Americas. So why call them Peruvian? Weird need to feel proud of insignificant things.
In Chile's defense, we are in our own way a unique place with our own expressions of diversity. With renowned writers like Pablo Neruda, Gabriela Mistral, Nicanor Parra, Isabel Allende, and an overall rich literary tradition. We have also enjoyed more mundane successes - Marcelo Rios #1 ranking in tennis 8 years ago. Third place at the 1962 World Cup of soccer. Bacl to back World Team Tennis Championships in 2003 and 2004, followed by double tennis Gold Medals at the recent Olympics. Chile was the first nation in the Americas to pass a Social Security law guaranteeing a safety net for the society. Chile abolished all types of slavery by 1825. With the exception of Pinochet's 16 year rule, Chile has maintained 180 years of constitutional and democratic rule. I believe these are the accomplishements that have made it a successful nation in many aspects. Chile also was the first nation on earth to elect a socialist prsident through the ballot box, with the organization and democratic participation of the country's working class.
As a result of political and labor activism, Chileans also were pioneers in the genre known as Nueva Canción which has spread all over the Americas as a musical expression for justice and hope.
Therefore, I think we need to be honest with ourselves. Divisions only help those who are already in power and exploiting the majorities of all our countries. Every time Bolivia has a crisis, they pull the nationalist card and distract the people from the corruption and ineptitude of the government and the political class. In Peru, president Toledo's popularity drops to 10% and so he begins demanding a new maritime border? We need to see through smokescreens folks. Bolivia deserves access to the sea, I agree. But I doubt it will change anything in regard to development unless the governments are no longer corrupt. Maybe Evo Morales can do something positive for Bolivia and South America, I like him, and I wish Bolivia the best. But let's drop the nationalism and the Pacific War syndrome. Nothing can change the past, but we can all change the present. Saludos hermanos - los quiero a todos. :) ¡Viva Sudamerica!
"The maritime borders is another different issue. According to the chilean government, Peru wants to take some of the land belonging to Chile. This is a false statement because the government of Peru wanted a third party/an international voice to set a fair limit between these two countries. Not take land away."
And MARIA, you should be more honest, the official government position has never been that Peru wants to take Chilean land. But Chile's government is well aware that setting a precedent of renegotiating treaties that were agreed to as fair by all parties 50 years ago is opening a can of worms. The water rights are key as fishing inddustry is woth billions of dollar. Chile has no reason or obligation to renegotiate - just the facts. Maybe Chile should demand that Argentina return the whole of Patagonia? Will never happen, agreements have been in place for 50+ years - that is the basis for sovereignty and international law. This is not a battle that can be won by Peru.
I have tried to avoid those "maritime borders" talks, but... :P
The truth is, there are some problems on one of the "hitos" that mark the frontier between Chile and Perú. As far as i know, the closest one to the ocean dissapeared by action of the time, and thus there is a bit of discussion about if it's in a straight line with the closest others (chile version) or if it's 100m south of there (peruvian version). And of course, the peruvian version means also that they want to use that as a way to trace the sea divition, gaing a whole lot of sea (even if in signed treaties says the opposite).
It's kinda funny actually. There has been a status quo over this for how many, 75 years? Every authority in Peru has considerated officially that chunk of sea as chilean for practical purposes, even after the dictation of their sea limits law.
They claimed that they wanted to take this to a mediator, or to a international tribunal... Why haven't they done it yet? Not like it will take 5-10 years with luck, nor that they will more than likely lose because of the dreaded "status quo".
Of course, i bet Fujimori has nothing to do with all that... nor the elections in Peru, or the low popularity level of... Toledo is still president? :).
Over Bolivia, i too agree that the "sea corridor" is not too hard to be given away. Going back to the 1978 talks would be the best bet, but the problem is that Bolivia don't want to have diplomatic relations with Chile unless we give them territory (doh!), and that Peru will more than likely oppose to the whole negotiation. Let's remember that Chile can't give territory in the frontier to a third coutry if Perú doesn't agree (specified in the 1925 treaty?).
Over the Potato-Gate case... Well, looks like some people in Perú (specially periodists and politicians) can't read, or don't understand what they read. How many varieties of "chilote potato" exist in Peru? Because that (and only that) is what we are going to register, not "THE POTATO".
Actually, i hope the cientific community of Perú is a little less dumb, realizes why we are doing what we do here, and start working on the same, and soon.
chile is also exporting the chirimoya as a "chiLEmoya" can you believe that sh!t!!!!!!
Los peruanos tienen (y me imagino los bolivianos tal vez) un enorme problema de identidad y un complejo de inferioridad que se manifiesta agudamente cuando chile esta involucrado. la campanha por el pisco es peruano ha alcanzado niveles de histeria. y que decir de lo del suspiro limenho, una historia risible. Quien dice que el charango no es tambien chileno? toda la zona sur d peru, este d bolivia, norte d argentina y chile son parte nuclear de la cultura andina. hace poco un diario limenho puso el grito en el cielo porque un documental de TV mostro guanacos en torres del paine parque y dijo "animal oriundo de chile" y salieron los patrioteros, que el guanaco es peruano bla bla. seguramente los guanacos necesitan pasaporte para ir a chile. lo de la
"chilemoya" es ya simplemente alucinante, ademas que ni siquiera es cierto. como peruano, los chilenos no me caen muy bien por pesados y creidos (no se de que porque fuera del vino no veo otro motivo de orgullo) pero hay que ser objetivos y dejarse de canseras patrioteras. si el pisco peruano es en su mayoria bamba, adulterado, pues cual es la sorpresa que el pisco haya conquistado el mundo gracias a un producto q pasa rigurosos controles como es en chile. aprendamos un poco de chile y dejemos de llorar por cualquier tontera.
Pienso que como nacida en Chile, criada en Peru, y ahora viviendo en USA, tengo una perspectiva algo diferente. Chile es un pais al que admiro muchisimo por su empuje y ese salir adelante a pesar de todo (es mas, si tuviera que vivir en Latinoamerica, Chile seria el unico pais al cual me iria a vivir). Por otro lado, al Peru lo quiero entra#ablemente. Olvidemonos de rivalidades estupidas (la guerra del Pacifico la gano Chile hace mas de 100 a#os...), pero mantengamos nuestra identidad: Se puede estar juntos sin estar revueltos. El Pisco es peruano, asi como lo es el suspiro Lime#o y el cebiche. Si Chile ha mejorado el proceso de produccion del pisco peruano, maravilloso, aprendamos de ellos, pero el pisco es y seguira siendo peruano (sino, habra que preguntarle a los franceses que hicieron para lograr que nadie mas pudiese llamar champagne al vino espumante que no proviene de aquella region en Francia). Salud!!
creo que Bolivia puede pedir salida al mar, en pedir no hay engaño. pero hasta donde tengo entendido, Bolivia si tiene salida al mar (no geograficamente). no soy experto en el tema, pero al parecer tienen una salida por donde pueden exportar todos sus productos. realmente no estoy seguro, cuando tenga mas info posteare denuevo. sin embargo, lo que no me gusta de alguna gente Boliviana (no quiero decir con esto que todo Boliviano sea asi), pero con quienes he hablado o he escuchado, dicen que, debido a que no tienen salida al mar tienen los problemas que tienen...por favor.
It is not true that stringed instruments did not exist before Columbus. And I read somewhere the Andeans did have a 3 stringed instrument that the Charango was cultural combination product from.
Here is a site that proves the Maya had a stringed instrument.
http://www.princetonartmuseum.org/Jaguar/jaguarWeb.swf
peruanos indulgentes ,tercer mundistas de mierda ,terminen esos celos a nuestra patria,hermosa y poderosa ,ustedes todos son una bola de perros que ladran pero no muerden.
Sabes que Orlandito?
Podria insultarte y llamarte muchas cosas que te harian sentir tan mal.. que ni hasta tu mismo podrias ver tu propia cara. Pero sabes? No me voy a bajar a tu nivel. Hay muchas formas de tener una discution sana y tener punto validos a que estar insultando a gente por el internet. No tienes mas que hacer, no?
Y por ultimo, si vas a decir algo a llamar a gente perros asume la responsabilidad y no borres tu pagina. Creo que los verdaderos animales... o una bestia... no seria cobarde y enfrentaria criticas. Entonces, tu, que eres?
happy pisco day tomorrow!!!! :D
JAJAJAJA!!!!!!!
Permítanme que me sonria
Si Chile cree que el Perú los envidia esta en un craso error como en todo.
ACUERDENSE QUE CHILE FUE CAPITANIA DEL VIRREYNATO DEL PERU ANTES DE SU INDEPENDENCIA.
POR ENDE TODO LOS PRODUCTOS CHILENOS TIENEN ORIGEN PERUANO.
LES GUSTE O NO A LOS DEL SUR.
Los Peruanos tenemos la capacidad de demostrar y sustentar con hechos feacientes nuestros argumentos.
A esto se llama legado de nuestro Imperio Inka.
Ademas nosotros respetamos a nuestros campesinos o aborígenes porque por ellos tenemos la mejor comida del mundo 100% natural y orgánica., por esto y la medicina super avanzada del imperio Inka, y por muchas otras interrogantes somos la civilización perdida que muchos paises del mundo todavía lo estan buscando.
We are state certified tree nursery specializing in native plants and trees, shrubs, fern, and perennials as well as pond plants and wetland mitigation species.
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